Erdogan een gevaarlijke gek? deel 2

24-03-2017 17:16 2299 berichten
Vorige topic is vol dus hier maar weer verder.

Link naar het vorige topic:



http://forum.viva.nl/forum/actueel/erdo ... ges/322395
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http://www.reuters.com/ar ... ey-politics-idUSKBN17J0PY



Monitors criticize Turkey referendum; Erdogan denounces 'crusader mentality'



By Gulsen Solaker, Tuvan Gumrukcu and Daren Butler | ANKARA/ISTANBUL



A defiant Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan denounced the West's "crusader mentality" on Monday after European monitors criticized a referendum to grant him sweeping new powers, won with a narrow victory laying bare the nation's divisions.



Addressing a crowd of flag-waving supporters from the steps of his palace in Ankara, Erdogan told election observers to "talk to the hand" and said it would not be so important to Turkey if the European Union broke off accession talks.



Sunday's vote ended all debate on forging a stronger presidency, Erdogan said, vowing that implementation of the reforms would begin straight away. But the main opposition party rejected the result and called for the vote to be annulled.



Thousands of people marched through at least three neighborhoods of Istanbul, some chanting "Thief, Erdogan", "no to the presidency" and "this is just the beginning" after calls on social media for protests in several cities.



Election authorities said preliminary results showed 51.4 percent of voters had backed the biggest overhaul of Turkish politics since the founding of the modern republic.



Erdogan says concentrating power in the hands of the president is vital to prevent instability. But the narrowness of his victory could have the opposite effect: adding to volatility in a country that has lately survived an attempted coup, attacks by Islamists, a Kurdish insurgency, civil unrest and war across its Syrian border.



The result laid bare the deep divide between the urban middle classes who see their future as part of a European mainstream, and the pious rural poor who favor Erdogan's strong hand. Erdogan reiterated his readiness to restore the death penalty at several appearances on Monday, which would effectively end Turkey's decades-long quest to join the EU.



"The crusader mentality in the West and its servants at home have attacked us," he told a crowd as he arrived at Ankara airport, in response to the monitors' assessment.



"We neither see, hear, nor acknowledge the political reports you'll prepare," he said later at the palace. "We'll continue on our path. Talk to the hand. This country has carried out the most democratic elections, not seen anywhere in the West."



The mission of observers from the 47-member Council of Europe, the continent's leading human rights body, said the referendum was an uneven contest. Support for "Yes" dominated campaign coverage, and the arrests of journalists and closure of media outlets silenced other views, the monitors said.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan addresses his supporters at the Presidential Palace in Ankara, Turkey, April 17, 2017. REUTERS/Umit Bektas



"In general, the referendum did not live up to Council of Europe standards. The legal framework was inadequate for the holding of a genuinely democratic process," said Cezar Florin Preda, head of the delegation.



While the monitors had no information of actual fraud, a last-minute decision by electoral authorities to allow unstamped ballots to be counted undermined an important safeguard and contradicted electoral law, they said.



Turkey's foreign ministry dismissed the observers' criticism as lacking objectivity and impartiality.



DIVISIONS



The bitter campaigning and narrow "Yes" vote exposed deep divisions in Turkey, with the country's three main cities and mainly Kurdish southeast likely to have voted "No". Official results are due to be announced in the next 12 days.



The U.S. State Department said it had taken note of the European monitors' concerns and looked forward to a final report, urging the Turkish government to protect the rights and freedoms of all citizens, however they voted.



Erdogan, a populist with a background in once-banned Islamist parties, has ruled since 2003 with no real rival, while his country emerged as one of the fastest-growing industrial powers in both Europe and the Middle East.



He has also been at the center of global affairs, commanding NATO's second-biggest military on the border of Middle East war zones, taking in millions of Syrian refugees and controlling their further flow into Europe.



He vowed Turkey's recent incursion into northern Syria would not be its last such venture in the region, saying it would carry out as many military operations as necessary, wherever necessary, in its fight against terrorism.



Critics accuse Erdogan of steering Turkey toward one-man rule. The two largest opposition parties both challenged Sunday's referendum, saying it was deeply flawed.



The pro-Kurdish opposition Peoples' Democratic Party said it presented complaints about unstamped ballots affecting 3 million voters, more than twice the margin of Erdogan's victory.



The main secularist opposition People's Republican Party said it was still unclear how many votes were affected.



"This is why the only decision that will end debate about the legitimacy (of the vote) and ease the people's legal concerns is the annulment of this election," deputy party chairman Bulent Tezcan said.



"ERDOGAN'S RESPONSIBILITY"



The president survived a coup attempt last year and responded with a crackdown, jailing 47,000 people and sacking or suspending more than 120,000 from government jobs such as schoolteachers, soldiers, police, judges or other professionals.



The changes could keep him in power until 2029 or beyond, making him easily the most important figure in Turkish history since state founder Mustafa Kemal Ataturk built a modern nation from the ashes of the Ottoman empire after World War One.



The result triggered a two percent rally in the Turkish lira from its close last week.



Germany, host to some 4 million Turks, said it was up to Erdogan himself to heal the rifts that the vote had exposed.



"The tight referendum result shows how deeply divided Turkish society is, and that means a big responsibility for the Turkish leadership and for President Erdogan personally," said Chancellor Angela Merkel and Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel in a joint statement.



Relations with Europe were strained during the referendum campaign when Germany and the Netherlands barred Turkish ministers from holding rallies. Erdogan provoked a stern German response by comparing those limits to the actions of the Nazis.



Under the changes, most of which will only come into effect after the next elections due in 2019, the president will appoint the cabinet and an undefined number of vice-presidents, and be able to select and remove senior civil servants without parliamentary approval.



(Reporting by Reuters bureaux in Istanbul and Ankara; Writing by Daren Butler, David Dolan and Dominic Evans; Editing by Peter Graff and Anna Willard)
quote:Pinarcik schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:23:

[...]





We hebben het nu over de PKK genocides. We kunnen niet tig onderwerpen tegelijk bespreken Hans.



Nee Hans, snap dat nu: de dood van 1,5 miljoen Armeniërs komt Peetje nu even niet uit.



Overigens wordt de gewapende vleugel van PKK wel degelijk als terroristische groepering aangemerkt.

Peetje houdt van simpel, zwart wit denken dus de rechten van minderheden zoals o.a. Koerden doen er niet toe in het grote geheel.



Haal je geschiedenis lessen maar uit een onafhankelijke bron.
quote:Pinarcik schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:36:

[...]





CHP komt altijd met dit soort verhalen, zogenaamde opgenomen telefoongesprekken, geheime camera's. Ze moeten toch wat na de zoveelste nederlaag. Gewoon eens tegen je verlies kunnen zonder al dat gezeur eromheen, kan CHP niet.Ongestempelde stemmen meetellen is natuurlijk wel frauduleus. Als je door te frauderen wint dan is het toch logisch dat de verliezers klagen? Zeker als er zoveel op het spel staat. Letterlijk levens.
quote:Hetvrijewoord schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:39:

[...]





Nee Hans, snap dat nu: de dood van 1,5 miljoen Armeniërs komt Peetje nu even niet uit.



Overigens wordt de gewapende vleugel van PKK wel degelijk als terroristische groepering aangemerkt.

Peetje houdt van simpel, zwart wit denken dus de rechten van minderheden zoals o.a. Koerden doet er niet toe in het grote geheel.



Haal je geschiedenis lessen maar uit een onafhankelijke bron.Nou nee Einstein, het ging er feitelijk niet over.
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Het is toch ook eigenlijk helemaal geen verrassing dat Erdo zogenaamd gewonnen heeft. Hij kan toch alles naar zijn hand zetten.
quote:Hetvrijewoord schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:39:

[...]





Nee Hans, snap dat nu: de dood van 1,5 miljoen Armeniërs komt Peetje nu even niet uit.



Overigens wordt de gewapende vleugel van PKK wel degelijk als terroristische groepering aangemerkt.

Peetje houdt van simpel, zwart wit denken dus de rechten van minderheden zoals o.a. Koerden doen er niet toe in het grote geheel.



Haal je geschiedenis lessen maar uit een onafhankelijke bron.



En of je zelf niet zwart-wit denkt.

Dat geldt zo ongeveer voor iedereen.

Anders is de wereld te ingewikkeld.



Einstein.
Als de OVSE zeer ernstige onregelmatigheden constateert zegt dat eigenlijk al genoeg.
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http://www.politico.eu/ar ... -chp-degirmenci-hurriyet/



ISTANBUL — As Turkey heads toward a constitutional referendum designed to grant its leader Recep Tayyip Erdo?an even greater powers, the polls predict a neck-and-neck race.



That doesn’t mean their chances are equal. While the April vote is likely to be free, whether it will be fair — given rising repression of political dissent and the ongoing state of emergency — is another question.



Take the case of ?rfan De?irmenci, a well-known news anchor for Kanal D, who explained his opposition to the proposed changes in a series of tweets earlier this month. “No to the one who views scientists, artists, writers, cartoonists, students, workers, farmers, miners, journalists and all who do not obey as the enemy,” he wrote.



He was promptly fired.



De?irmenci’s dismissal has heightened fears among No campaigners that those who oppose the new constitution will be subject to threats and intimidation ahead of the referendum on April 16.



“A lot of people are risking their careers and their future by openly and publicly campaigning for No” — ?lhan Tanir



“A lot of people are risking their careers and their future by openly and publicly campaigning for No,” said ?lhan Tanir, a Turkish columnist and analyst based in Washington. “There is nothing fair about this.”



Government supporters face no such risk: While Kanal D claimed De?irmenci had been let go for violating the media group’s neutrality rule, Yes supporters have been free to air their views in the pages of Hürriyet, which belongs to the same group.



Hurriyet itself — a newspaper that positions itself as neutral — has muted critical voices: Its editors last week scrapped an interview with Orhan Pamuk, in which the Nobel Prize-winning Turkish novelist explained his reasons for voting No.



As state pressure on critical outlets mounts, the No camp fears its voice will be drowned out once Erdo?an and his allies begin to campaign in earnest. Speaking to journalists in Ankara, Kemal Kiliçdaro?lu, the leader of the largest opposition party CHP, estimated that the government’s influence extended to 90 percent of the Turkish media.

Turkey Holds A Snap General Election Amid Tight Security



Turkey’s main opposition Republican People’s Party leader Kemal Kiliçdaro?lu complains about government influence over media. | Burak Kara/Getty Images



“This is definitely not going to be a fair referendum. We know that the pro-Erdo?an media will have a broadcasting policy that completely ignores the opposition,” Kiliçdaro?lu said. “It will be presented as if we are running against the state.”

Shrinking space for debate



Turkey’s media landscape is heavily skewed in the government’s favor. Most critical news organizations have been shut down, leaving only a handful of small to medium-sized outlets; the rest are largely owned by government-friendly conglomerates.



“It is very difficult to find any family of a Turkish media tycoon in which President Erdo?an has not attended a wedding or served as a marriage witness,” the press freedom advocacy group Reporters Without Borders noted last year.



Media pluralism was further diminished in the aftermath of last summer’s failed coup. As the government purged the state and civil society — first of supposed coup supporters and later of critics of all stripes — hundreds of journalists disappeared behind bars. More than 150 media outlets were shuttered.



Earlier this month, Erdo?an issued a decree stripping the Supreme Election Board of its power to fine broadcasters who do not give equal airtime to different parties and views ahead of elections. Criticizing the order, Kiliçdaro?lu accused the government of tipping the scales further in their favor: “Only their voices will be heard until the referendum.”



Emine Nur Günay, a member of parliament for Erdo?an’s governing Justice and Development Party (AKP) and a representative at the Council of Europe, described the opposition’s fears as unfounded. “Whenever I turn on the TV or look at the program, there are so many opposition MPs on television,” she said.



Erdo?an is hoping to consolidate his powers in an April referendum on a reform of the Turkish constitution



Also On Politico

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Turkish students attend a lesson at their school in Istanbul



Also On Politico

Turkey’s new curriculum: More Erdo?an, more Islam



Zia Weise



Outside the world of newspapers and television, the space for debate appears to be shrinking as well. Cases of outspoken government opponents being attacked or arrested — or both — are mounting. In Ankara, an assailant fired shots at an outspoken union head shortly after he had publicly called on citizens to vote No last weekend. In the western province of Izmir, two women were physically attacked and accused of “undermining the state” while handing out No flyers, Turkish media reported.



Politicians are not immune. When prominent nationalist politician Meral Ak?ener addressed a No rally in a hotel earlier this month, the electricity was unexpectedly cut, forcing her to hold the meeting in darkness. She believed the power cut was deliberate; the hotel’s owners are considered close to Erdo?an.



Meanwhile, Sera Kadigil, an outspoken No campaigner and CHP MP, was detained for four “blasphemous” tweets from 2010. A dozen MPs of the pro-Kurdish opposition party HDP — firmly opposed to the president — already languish in prison, charged with terror offenses.

A history of free elections



Turkey has enjoyed 15 years of free elections under AKP rule, but the Council of Europe has expressed “serious doubt” about the upcoming referendum vote’s fairness amid rising repression.



The concern appears to be shared by Turkey’s European partners. When German Chancellor Angela Merkel visited Ankara earlier this month, she suggested that observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe should monitor the referendum, “so that what the people want is guaranteed.”



The Council of Europe’s human rights commissioner Nils Muiznieks noted last week that the political atmosphere had significantly deteriorated during the continuing state of emergency. “Legitimate dissent and criticism of government policy are vilified and repressed,” he said, criticizing Turkey’s overly broad terror laws in particular.



Labeling opponents as terror supporters is a tried-and-tested method of the Turkish government. In 2015, in the run-up to parliamentary elections, Erdo?an painted the HDP as such, giving voters a stark choice — me or the terrorists. It worked. The HDP lost several percentage points from the previous poll and Erdo?an’s AKP won a majority of seats in the parliament.



The rhetoric is eerily similar this time around. In a recent speech, Erdo?an compared No voters to the militant Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which has waged a three-decade insurgency against the Turkish state from their base in northern Iraq’s Qandil mountains.

At Least 90 Killed in Attempted Military Coup in Turkey



Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdo?an delivers a speech to supporters in Istanbul a day after a failed military coup last July 15 | Defne Karadeniz/Getty Images



“Who says no? The PKK says no. Who says no? Qandil says no. Who says no? Those who want to divide this country say no. Those who are against our flag say no,” Erdo?an said.



His prime minister, Binali Yildirim, has claimed that terror groups support the No vote.



A popular picture making the rounds on Turkish social media neatly summarizes the president’s argument: Under the heading “the choice is yours,” the image shows Erdo?an and his allies, along with a stock image of a suffering child, under the word “yes” — contrasted with a photo montage of opposition leaders, the supposed coup mastermind Fethullah Gülen, ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and an American flag under the word “no”.



Günay, the AKP parliamentarian, insisted the government’s referendum campaign would have none of the polarizing rhetoric that marked the previous elections. The ruling party’s approach would be “friendly and inclusive.”



At its official campaign launch this weekend, the AKP did opt for a softer approach, ditching the divisive rhetoric. The party instead sought to promote a positive vision of stability and economic growth.



“This is not a presidential election, it will shape our future. So we will be there as citizens, not just as MPs from the AKP,” Günay said. “Some people may vote Yes, some people may vote No. The important thing is to be in touch with people and discuss.”



Still, the No camp fears it may have little opportunity to reach out to voters. “It will be free to say No in the referendum as well as Yes,” Hürriyet columnist Murat Yetkin noted last week. “But while there will be no ban on saying No during the campaign, getting that voice heard is another matter.”
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Ineke denk je dat iemand zin heeft die lappen tekst te lezen?
quote:sam1968 schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:10:

[...]



We zullen zien.

Alles in aanmerking genomen kan hij concluderen dat er in Turkije meer mensen tegen waren dan voor.

Een burgeroorlog zal hem ook geen goed doen lijkt me?

En even eerlijk, die Europese Turken heeft hij niet zo heel veel aan natuurlijk. Ik denk dat de meesten hun dienstplicht ook afgekocht hebben? Denk ik hoor.







Is er geen Disney of make-up topic voor je waar je beter tot je recht komt?
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Nou wil ik eens buitenlands nieuws zien dat het referendum wel eerlijk is verlopen, buiten de propaganda machine van Erdogan.
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quote:Pinarcik schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:47:

Ineke denk je dat iemand zin heeft die lappen tekst te lezen?Tja daar heb je het probleem waar eerder over gesproken is. Je slaat de spijker op zijn kop.
quote:Hetvrijewoord schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:49:

[...]









Is er geen Disney of make-up topic voor je waar je beter tot je recht komt?Heb je ook nog iets inhoudelijks te melden?
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Het is heel goed mogelijk dat CHP leden bewust een stembus ongestempeld heeft gelaten. Ze moeten toch wat om de overwinning van Erdogan te overschaduwen.
quote:sam1968 schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:51:

[...]



Heb je ook nog iets inhoudelijks te melden?Veel, jammer dat je het gemist hebt.
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Was er met de vorige verkiezingen ook niet zoiets waar CHP op t laatste moment meekwam ? Wat mij betreft mag er wel opnieuw gestemd. Ik durf erop te wedden dat in dat geval de ja kamp met 60 procent gaat overwinnen ipv 51.
quote:Hetvrijewoord schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:56:

[...]





Veel, jammer dat je het gemist hebt.Nou ik heb niet alles gemist hoor.
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Of mensen worden eindelijk wakker en stemmen nee..
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Op onderstaande pinarcikquote:thee schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 16:09:

[...]





Ik begrijp daar ook helemaal niks van. Ik begrijp dat nog slechter dan mensen op Trump hebben gestemd. Zover terug in de tijd.

Dat het een nipte meerderheid is maakt het i.m.o. beangstigender want bij een grote meerderheid verwacht ik niet veel opstand. Nu wel en dat zal waarschijnlijk gepaard gaan met bloedvergieten.

Wat ik overigens niet helemaal begrijp, maar misschien weet ik er te weinig van, het gaat in bij de geplande verkiezingen in 2018. Blijft het dan voorlopig zoals het nu is?

Pinarcik, ik schreef over de plannen om alle grote resorts aan de kust halal te maken. Denk dat de inkomstenstroom dan zo goed als opdroogt en het zal bijdragen aan de verwording van een arm, zeer arm land. Hoe zie jij zijn macht toch nog steeds in een positief perspectief. Als je JA stemt, dan neem ik aan dat je daar zoveel voordelen in ziet dat je daar ook goed zou kunnen wonen, jezelf daar kunnen ontwikkelen etc. Wat houd jou nu hier? En noem niet 'mijn vrienden' want met al de eensgezinden daar raak je ook vast snel bevriend.

Dat er mensen in Turkije zelf blijkbaar niet verder kijken omdat ze in sommige gebieden bewust dom gehouden worden is een, maar als Turk woonachtig in het (welvarende) Westen.

Ik Begrijp Het Gewoon Niet.
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quote:runningmonster schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 23:02:

Of mensen worden eindelijk wakker en stemmen nee..Dat zal niet gebeuren zolang ze alleen door het Erdogan goedgekeurde nieuws lezen en zich geen verder ander nieuws toe zich nemen. Iemand heeft dit zojuist bewezen.
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http://www.dejongeturken. ... christenen-vrolijk-pasen/
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quote:Pinarcik schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 22:58:

Was er met de vorige verkiezingen ook niet zoiets waar CHP op t laatste moment meekwam ? Wat mij betreft mag er wel opnieuw gestemd. Ik durf erop te wedden dat in dat geval de ja kamp met 60 procent gaat overwinnen ipv 51.Wordt eens tijd dat je eens ander nieuws gaat lezen dan wat Erdogan goed keurt maar dat is te veel tekst voor je.
quote:Pinarcik schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 23:05:

http://www.dejongeturken. ... christenen-vrolijk-pasen/Wat is het toch een aardige vent!
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quote:thee schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 23:03:

Op onderstaande pinarcik





[...]

Je vraag is, kortgezegd, waarom ik niet verhuis naar Turkije?
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quote:Pientjexxxx schreef op 17 april 2017 @ 23:07:

[...]





Wat is het toch een aardige vent! Terwijl er eerst een Duitse school in Turkije in eerste instantie geen Kerst mocht vieren.

Dit is een oud topic. Het topic is daarom gesloten.
Maak een nieuw topic aan om verder praten over dit onderwerp.

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